One other factor you’re not considering is that the Aurora cannot jump through something. To do so would be the same as trying to plow your way through the object in normal spaceflight. (Doesn’t usually work well.) So, jumping to just the other side of a target requires a course change (so that you’re not colliding with the target during your jump), a short jump, then another course change and jump. Of course, you could always just change your course a few degrees, and jump just beyond the aft end of the target and fire. However, since that target may be traveling at considerable speed, and you’re traveling in the opposite direction, whatever you fire has to make up that difference, which may not be possible.
A bit of nitpicking, but I have a slight issue with the logic/science of this statement as it seems unlikely that during all of the jumps made, there hasn't been some mass along the jump ship's path. This is the same issue you get with any FTL drive that doesn't involve isolating itself from the rest of the universe, it's very dangerous to use it if it can't be ensured that the path is clear or some form of shielding (which I suppose might occur) will ensure that stray matter doesn't hit the ship as it moves causing massive damage. There is also the matter of jumping into the atmosphere, where there is a fair amount of matter along the path. This also relates to the concept of a jump bomb that I gave here. It seems like the drive really is point-to-point, but the crew hasn't really been inclined to prove/test it experimentally for good reason as if it isn't point-to-point, then once it tries to pass through something it cannot (there must be some amount of give if no jump has failed yet), then things can go very badly.
Looks like shield technology brought back the Dreadnoughts concept of old (at least as far as Takara's 4 battleships), although the Jump drive and fairly cheap method such as KKV seem like they would be shelved. Still any thoughts on any other shield tech application that would effect military tactics?
For example, now they can program a series of jumps to take place automatically. This has been used by the jump shuttles and the Falcon, but not yet by the Aurora.
Been thinking about that one. How about this attack. Start 10 light minutes out. Fire all light speed weapons. Yes, this first batch will be weak when it gets there as lasers over a long distance do spread. Jump 30 light seconds in. Recharge weapons. As the first batch of light speed attacks past the ship, fire all light speed weapons again. Keep doing this till 30 light seconds out. Then wait and watch for a full attack from 20 ships that are actually 1 ship to hit the same spot all at once.
You can do that with rail gun shots too but they will see what is happening. With light speed, first warning is the weapon hitting the ship. And it might work well as a first shot. Not for second as the enemy may figure out what is happening and dodge as you have to calculate where the ship is 10 minutes in the future for it to work. Not possible if they dodge.
PS, rail guns may not be fiction in the future. The US navy is trying to develop the idea. 500 nm range for a 2 pound projectile with as much hitting power as the 2000 pounders from ww2
Been thinking about that one. How about this attack. Start 10 light minutes out. Fire all light speed weapons. Yes, this first batch will be weak when it gets there as lasers over a long distance do spread. Jump 30 light seconds in. Recharge weapons. As the first batch of light speed attacks past the ship, fire all light speed weapons again. Keep doing this till 30 light seconds out. Then wait and watch for a full attack from 20 ships that are actually 1 ship to hit the same spot all at once.
Its an interesting idea, but I don't think that in TFS laser are that strong from a far or that you'd be able to preform a precision laser strike from ~10 light min away. Even if you use falcon as a "spotter" i.e. jump in and out to get you the most recent telemetry from your target to start you on your attack run, it is still a huge gamble that during the next 10 min they wouldn't change their course.
You can still use the method to create a missile barrage, that would easily overcome their point defense. However, I'd imagine that any sensible captain would hit the FTL button the moment he see more missiles than he chew coming his way.
IMO the real game changer from jump tech, will come from Jump weapons. Right now the biggest threat to Aurora are ships which can put more power into shields then Aurora can hope to overcome, such as battleships or battle platform, and having a weapon that can jump through those shields and bring down their emitters can even out the odds.
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PS, rail guns may not be fiction in the future. The US navy is trying to develop the idea. 500 nm range for a 2 pound projectile with as much hitting power as the 2000 pounders from ww2
Indeed, and pack more fire power than most missiles today. Honestly, I was surprised when Jar-Keurogs railguns has been mostly shrugged off, doing as much damage as most regular point defense systems. I'd assume that battleship railguns would be at the very least few times as strong as Aurora Quads and the pounding it received would inflict more damage than barrage of missiles.
But then again I suppose it possible that Jar-Keurog wasn't fully operational at the time, or at the hand of over confident incompetent fool, otherwise its hard to explain its easylucky capture. After all General Bacca was familiar with Aurora tactics and payload, that they will negate Jar-Keurog long range advantage, still Jar-Keurog didn't seem to take even the most basic defensive measures e.g. deploying a fighter screen. A couple of interceptor wings with anti ship missiles would have made a short work of our shield-less Aurora jumping into close range...
Honestly, I was surprised when Jar-Keurogs railguns has been mostly shrugged off, doing as much damage as most regular point defense systems. I’d assume that battleship railguns would be at the very least few times as strong as Aurora Quads and the pounding it received would inflict more damage than barrage of missiles.
That really depends. It could be that once you get to a certain size of railgun, that the energy required launch the projectile is unreasonable, so most railguns end around the same size. With ZPEDS, that might change due to the high energy output with little space used.
Could also be that the curved nature of the Explorer class, makes shells that hit less likely to do as much damage with railguns, but missiles explode on contact and don't have that issue.
I could be mistaken but jar-keurog's bigger rail guns had more difficulty tracking the Aurora using her jump tactics. Also I think apoc is right about diminishing returns with size. To propel a larger projectile at the same speed as the point defense rounds would be an increase in power proportional to the increase in mass. The larger rounds are probably slower because of power issues, and with the Aurora jumping away constantly, less likely to make a direct hit. The curved hull probably helped too. I don't remember if Ryk ever specified what type of ammo the battleship used. They may have been using dumb slugs, or rounds unsuited to the situation. Overconfidence might have delayed their effectiveness until too late too.
I like David's idea of launching an attack form a distance. It's like a TOT artillery barrage. Wouldn't work very well against an alert or mobile target but would be great against a stationary target like a battle platform or space station. Launching a whole bunch of rounds from the quads all timed to impact a week later. That could work for an ambush, or to overwhelm a targets defenses just before the Aurora, or 402s sweep in. It would cause a disproportiante amount of damage in a small amount of time. Dumb metal slugs would be hard to see too, even the biggest rounds are only a few meters, and with no electronics or propulsion.
It occurs to me that missiles can be programmed to coast most of the way so adding your entire ships complement of them to a single wave would be easy with all the jumping you can do. Then jump out and reload and your missiles hit about the time you are done reloading
All this talk of TOT attacks is reminding me of missile pods and missile carriers from David Weber's Honorverse along with a couple other series. Basically take a cargo ship and refit to to carry and deploy as many missile pods as can be fit into the hold as well as attached to the outer hull.
The improvements to be made are as followed:
1. Give each pod a jump drive and propulsion system. The pods could hit a target in multiple places from multiple directions or a single place from multiple angles simultaneously. Once the pod has expended it's ordinance it could return the nearest supply facility for rearming.
2. Give each pod a ZPED to maximize it's acceleration capabilities and practical max speed. Each pod could be accelerated to near light making it harder to hit as it passes by the target.
3. Replace the missiles with solid kinetic projectiles. Given the above two modifications solid projectiles would be about as effective. Multiple projectile pods attacking at the same time could aim to maximize the chance of at least one projectile hitting, though a missile guidance system of a would give them additional maneuverability even if the weapons are purely kinetic.
4. Speaking of alternative weapons the pod could also simply be outfitted with as big of a laser as possible and that would allow it to fire at the ship until the pod is destroyed. Especially useful if the pod can jump-fire-jump well before it could be targeted.
This ends up being an extension of @swordedge's idea, but potentially allows for much more massive (hopefully overwhelming) missile waves. Of course, it requires massive missile reserves, which takes time to build up.
Could also be that the curved nature of the Explorer class, makes shells that hit less likely to do as much damage with railguns, but missiles explode on contact and don’t have that issue.
I wouldn't bet on Aurora curves. Also don't forget that in space there is no air, hence no shockwave from explosions, which would greatly reduce their effectiveness. To my (limited) understanding there are several types of armor piercing missiles: high-explosives ones, that focus the energy to penetrate the armor in spot (and iirc shockwaves are part of the equation that makes them effective) and Kinetic projectiles, which to large extent are a more accurate version of what our railguns deliver.
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I could be mistaken but jar-keurog’s bigger rail guns had more difficulty tracking the Aurora using her jump tactics.
That why I was surprised that there was no interceptor screen. Also since they knew Aurora tactics, it makes sense that all guns will have their assigned sectors around the ship and shouldn't have trouble to punch holes through Aurora soon after it showed.
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I don’t remember if Ryk ever specified what type of ammo the battleship used. They may have been using dumb slugs, or rounds unsuited to the situation. Overconfidence might have delayed their effectiveness until too late too.
Indeed, that what I am going with: extreme overconfidence and extreme luck (and because Earth capturing spaceportsupplies, needed to happen)
Otherwise it was a way too easy, after we were warned by Lieutenant Telles of the Ghatazhak, that the walk in the park that was Tanna wouldn't be repeated with Jung on earth, the cautioussuspicious General bacca who knew Arurora tactics, and the preparations (the mines that were presumably developed against Aurora tactics). The mighty Jar-Keurog, with its multiple redundancies, has been way to easily overcome, IMO.
Jung battleships are designed to inflict heavy damage from far away using their big rail guns. Their missile batteries are for medium distance targets. They didn't launch a fighter screen because it would have been useless against a ship as large as the Aurora, especially considering that she would never stay in one place long enough to be effectively targeted.
You all are giving General Bacca too much credit. First, he was not calling the shots directly. Each ship's captain was making their own decisions about how to act/react to the Aurora attacks. Also, this was their first real series of engagements against the Aurora, so they really didn't have enough experience or time to formulate a defense or to prepare resources for such a specialized defense.
The only reason that the Aurora was victorious over the Jar-Keurog was because she jumped inside the enemy ship's shields, then was unable to make the turn and grazed her as they jumped, taking a chunk out of her hull. That bit of luck opened an opportunity for the Ghatazhak, who spotted the opportunity and took advantage of it.
Remember, just before the Ghatazhak took the Jar-Keurog, the Aurora was unable to jump, and was a sitting duck, about to get pounded by the Jar-Keurog's big guns from long range, which is exactly what those guns were designed for.
So, once again, it came down to timing, circumstance, and Nathan Scott's dumb luck.
Okay I have read all of the posts here and the entire series of books twice. Other then a plot device to keep the series going longer I do not understand why Captain Scott has not used or even considered using KKV's which he did not have a problem deploying against the Takar battleship in book 6. Why not just launch a KKV or two at the battle platforms from long distance and watch the fireworks show?????? No one gets hurt (except the Jung...no loss there) and the Alliance ships are not put in jeopardy. The only down side I see is that it would make the story line shorter.
KKVs were not used because they were disassembled and the power plants were hijacked for the jump shuttle. At the time Nathan had no reason to expect the battle platform so soon, and the ships were too mobile to be practical against, at least not when weighed against getting help from the PC. In hindsight it would have been convienient if Ryk spent more time explaining the reasoning but oh well. I think considering the earths situation and Nathan's recent resolve, I hope to see some serious discussion on Nathan's part about prioritizing their reconstruction and deployment. For stationary targets they are the ideal for shock and awe. Go to a Jung system, launch from a distance and take out the major combatants (battleships, and battle platforms) from ten light minutes out. Leave the frigates and cruisers, place some 402s to follow. The Jung are likely complacent in their own core, probably haven't had a real ship to ship rebellion in a long time. You don't even need the zpms, just 10x light to create massive havoc. If Nathan is fast, he could follow these ships to a major planet or fleet center and cut the head off the dragon. A shotgun spread of kkvs and poof, the Jung are no longer combat effective. But they have to be fast before the Jung retaliate in kind. It would be dangerous gamble, but the only real way Nathan knows how to fight. Go big or go home. I figure 6 months of repairs and building a 100 drones with the help of karuzara and book 15 ends with the Jung pissed but impotent. I still can't picture Nathan taking out a populated planet no matter how bad the Jung hurt earth.
I would honestly love to see Nathan really grow up and take luck out of the equation. To just say screw it and go balls to the wall against the Jung using whatever tactics are needed short of arbitrarily killing civilians.
Ok, what about offensive tactics against the Jung? Imagine you are tasked with designing the order of battle to take a fully operational Jung solar system with two inhabited planets and 14 major inhabited moons. One Battle Platform, two Cruisers and 8 frigates and one Battleship. You can assume several flights of ground to space fighters on each planet, along with missiles and other ground defenses.
How do you attack? Do you start with raids to take out the Battle Platform and maybe the Battleship? Or do you make a giant surprise attack at one time?
What strategy would you advise the battle group commander to use?
