@Eric Nay:
Seems like it would be more effective to attack on opposite sides of the Jung (maximize the distance between the two ships). If done well, this will make it look like the Aurora simply has a much higher jump range. The idea is to ensure that the attacks are not simultaneous. Then again, that might not work as the damage the ships receive will be different so it shouldn't fool the Jung long if they see a reason to compare the two more closely.
@Aaron:
True enough, any weapon spinal mounted will be rather effective against anything of similar size. The issue is that effectiveness drops off quickly as the enemy ship gets larger.
The 2 prong strategy is a good one to sow confusion among the Jung, but Celestia is a long way from being operational. When it left earth it was still a few months from being fully built and remember it only has 2 of the 4 "mains" for propulsion. They are not fully calibrated and out of propellant also. They will need to get to Tanna to refuel/repair/refit. The Celestia & Aurora crews still has a lot of work to do...
Maybe rather than a two pronged attack, just attack from one side of the Jung Empire, as if they have bumped into another Empire looking to expand. Especially when the Avendahl and Gatakxxx forces appear with totally different spacesuits and ship designs. It would force the Jung to direct all their reserves to that side of the empire, and maximize the advantage the Alliance has to free the systems on the other side.
Of course, with the delays in communication apparent in the Jung empire, it would take years to get them to respond like this. Maybe they could do a false flag trick, appear with a captured Jung cruiser in some systems and transmit the news of the attacks on the far side of the empire.
@Nuclearman: I get what you are saying on that, but based on what we know, a small vessel (like a highly modified fighter) could be very effective against even a much larger ship. Based on the battle in the Sol system between the Jung forces and the Defender class ships, the Jung do not seem to have either the offensive or defensive capability of Takaran technology. Thus, a small zped on a fighter should be able to create a small fast-attack craft that can jump, fire a relatively large-bore weapon like the particle cannon, possibly even carry shields, and jump out. Even if one shot isn't a killer for the larger vessels, a repeated attack or one with a small swarm of them could be devastating.
Hamsterman: I like your idea of multiple mini-jumps to confuse a target. I was thinking throughout several of the space battle scenes "Why don't they use the "Picard Maneuver"" (and I don't mean pulling down your uniform shirt whenever you stand up >grin<)? Of course it would depend largely upon which 'Jump Drive' they are using... the Books 1-5 version that relies on power level and field control, or the Books 6-9 version that relies upon base speed, direction and a "clear" path.
Using the "Picard Maneuver" for torpedoes and small ships could really overwhelm non-jump capable ships. Why send twenty missiles hoping that one could get through when you can make one missile look like 100?
@Aaron: True enough. It'll be interesting to see what tactics are used when jump fighter(s) are used offensive against spacecraft.
@ericnay: Attacking from the side might work. Although there is always a chance that such an empire exists and that the Aurora will run into it if it tries that tactic. Sowing confusion about where the enemy is might also work well. One thing to keep in mind though is that the Jung might punish the populations of Earth for the actions of the Aurora.
@Shane: From what I read of what the Picard Maneuver is (haven't watched the older Star Treks), it's almost always used by the Aurora after it becomes clear that short range jumps can be made. My understanding is as followed: The Aurora jumps and attacks the enemy ship, if the Aurora was on the enemy's sensors before the jump, then it is the Picard Maneuver. Although, a more strict definition may require that the Aurora already be within attack range before it jumps. You should read my post earlier in this topic about a "jump bomb". Although the tactic of making one missile look like many could make it more difficult to spot the real bomb before it makes it's final jump.
The Jung don't have shields at all, so it's a matter of duking it out head to head all the time. I have no doubt that they will fix up the Celestia and fit her with jump drives as well and fighting toe jump capable ships at once is going to be a mean task.
With regards to the topic, a jump torpedo I think is kind of irrelevant. It would be a hell of a weapon, but the non ZPED comm drones the takarans had were capable of very fast FTL speeds and they weren't large at all and a single one of them obliterated a takaran ship over Corinair.
If it was me in this situation I'd want to be avoiding any damage to my ships and these pricks just took my home world and many others, they deserve no mercy. I'd have a modified version of the FTL comm drones being pumped out by the fabricators. Set up a bunch a light hour or two from the combat zone. Jump in close enough for the enemy to see you but out of rail gun range, drop a target painting drone that locks the target for the FTL drone on the enemy ship and jump away again. Moments later the ship goes boom as the FTL drone smashed through it at 15x the speed of light. Rinse and repeat.
But Ryk won't do that. The biggest problem they will have is running out of nukes and torpedoes so eventually all the tubes will likely be converted to the plasma cannons. It's just not feasible for them to have to continuously launch 20+ missiles / torpedoes at the. Enemy ships to have them cut down by point defences.
I've always thought a brilliant weapon would be to have a torpedo that when launched breaks into 10 or 20 "mini missiles" all armed with smaller nukes. Fire off 4 of those suckers and the enemies point defences have to find a way of taking out 80 incoming tracks - not possible and even if the warheads were much smaller, generally a single nuke takes out a ship so if even only 5 or 10 of them got through the Jung would be screwed! Gotta overwhelm their defences.
Can't just rely on jump tactics... Although having two ships and jumping in front and behind the enemy firing a salvo and jumping out of range before getting hit is the tactic I expect Ryk will employ with the Celestia along for the fight. Jung boats will be dropping like flies.
Can't wait for the next few books! Please write faster Mr. Brown. Currently my fav sci fi series.
Also, I like the idea of the jump capable fighter. All it needs to do is jump right next to the ship with a nuke. Offload the bomb, jump away and detonate. Very simple and effective tactic. A squadron of 24 birds with a single nuke each could take out 24 enemy ships, or at least cripple them for the Aurora to come and finish the job. The benefit of this is that the fighter is small and could jump in close enough to be in a "blind" spot for the enemy crafts defences effectively making it a danger free mission.
I also love the idea of jumping something unmanned through an enemy ship, but they'd have to test it on something first, it's a big manufacturing proposition to effect the idea of a jump missile.
I think if this were real, we'd see a narrowing of the options pretty fast. I think the end state would have Jump Fighters and FTL missiles, and energy weapons everywhere except perhaps for rebellious ground troops.
But it would be an interesting battlespace getting to that point. Wait a minute, that's exactly what we're reading! 🙂
I was also pondering the specific weapons we might have then. Imagine a beam that affected flesh but not metal, kind of like the 80s Neutron Bomb. Kills people but leaves their assets behind. I believe the Jem'Hadar Ghatazhak might be interested in something like that.
In episode 7 they verified that the jump drive was pulled to large gravity wells (black hole or ZPED), and the attraction is also affected by the amount of power dumped into the jump drive. So, jump bomb/missile would be drawn to any ship with a ZPED, if that ZPED was powered up enough. This would mean that most likely targeting method would be enemy recognition, fly by wire, or target painting. Since the last two are not reliable over long distances, it would be enemy recognition, which could be my ship profile or ship gravity well.
If you stay in one position for a period of time, then it is likely that they will be able to find you. If they can find you and your ZPED's are powered up, then someone could destroy your ship, before you ever knew a jump bomb was incoming. So, the first line of defense would be to randomly jump at random times and to keep the ZPED's powered as low as possible. The ultimate defense would be ZPED that emit large gravity well (aka jump trap) or to stay near a black hole. Either would pull any jump ship/bomb/missile to them, but would also prevent you from jumping anywhere.
Of course as the tech expands, they might find that by adjusting the frequency of electricity to a jump drive and the output of your jump trap will allow you to jump freely, while anyone else is pulled to the jump trap. Of course, you would have something like a weapons platform parked near the jump trap. If it is possible to tune ZPED powered jump traps and jump drives, you could build long distance transportation highways using smaller ZPED powered jump ships, and have them switch to a specific frequency to be pulled to a specific jump trap in an instant. Interstellar empire spanning thousands of light years would be VERY easy to manage and defend.
I may have glassed over it on accident, but in response to what Nuclearman said about the two possibilities of the jump weapons: I believe it was Vladimir (it could possibly have been Cameron, I can't quite remember, but it sounds like something Vlad would've said) that Nathan was extremely lucky up until the point of them using their Superluminal Drive as they haven't actually collided with anything up until that point, the closest they've come was either the Campaglia (which, in all honesty, since it was using the ZPED and it interfered with the Jump fields caused them to drop out of the jump (which in theory means that the Anti-matter boost they had could've propelled them MUCH further than 1000 light years) or that black hole they ran into on their way back home. That being said, they don't actually "Teleport" anywhere, but they are moving through the universe at speeds that are incomprehensible to the human mind. So they are actually moving through space instead of just disappearing and reappearing. They're just doing it so fast it looks like they are teleporting. So if you were to use that in the KKV aspect, it would indeed be plausible.
I may have glassed over it on accident, but in response to what Nuclearman said about the two possibilities of the jump weapons: I believe it was Vladimir (it could possibly have been Cameron, I can’t quite remember, but it sounds like something Vlad would’ve said) that Nathan was extremely lucky up until the point of them using their Superluminal Drive as they haven’t actually collided with anything up until that point, the closest they’ve come was either the Campaglia (which, in all honesty, since it was using the ZPED and it interfered with the Jump fields caused them to drop out of the jump (which in theory means that the Anti-matter boost they had could’ve propelled them MUCH further than 1000 light years) or that black hole they ran into on their way back home. That being said, they don’t actually “Teleport” anywhere, but they are moving through the universe at speeds that are incomprehensible to the human mind. So they are actually moving through space instead of just disappearing and reappearing. They’re just doing it so fast it looks like they are teleporting. So if you were to use that in the KKV aspect, it would indeed be plausible.
If that is the statement I think it is, I seem to recall it being made in reference to stumbling across black holes up to that point. Although, I suppose it might have been in reference to matter. That being said, Ryk Brown has also stated that it's not point to point elsewhere in these forums, so I'm reluctantly inclined to accept the author's vision. That being said, it still seems rather suspicious that they haven't hit anything yet. Given how fast they seem to be moving, it seems like even hitting a single atom would be enough to cause noticeable damage to the hull. Although, another thing I considered recently is that since the Jump drive was developed while testing shield technology, it may be able to ignore matter in it's path until a certain limit, which hasn't been reached yet.
I seem to remember something of a conversation between Nathan and Abby about the "Jump Drive" where Abby said that they discovered it during energy shield research. Also, that Abby said that her father thought that the ship might phase out of our "reality" or "universe" to make the jump. I believe that may "cure" the problem of possibly hitting something. I would have to go back a re-read the episodes to be sure so don't quote me or "jump" down my throat if I wrong... 🙂
There was also a discussion when Nathan wanted to jump inside the shields of the opposing ship (Rise of Corinair) and he was assured that they wouldn't be affected by the shields as they were not in the same 'universe'.
Remember, though, this is both fiction and also that the scientists & engineers are working off of a new and incompletely understood phenomenon, and that while the theory has made some good predictions--good enough for engineers to build something-- that doesn't mean it is really understood.
@hamsterman and @wolfman
That's exactly the kind of solution(s) I was thinking of when I said point-to-point. It doesn't actually travel through normal space, but disappears at one point and arrives at another point without having physically traveled through the (normal) space in-between. However, such a method should likely be able to travel straight through planets as well as ships or anything else really as if they weren't there, but it's sounding like that wasn't the case. Then again, I might just be thinking of cases where it errors in precision may allow the ship to appear inside of the ship, rather than cases where the destination is sufficiently far on the other side of the ship for that not to be an issue.
